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| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ August 25, 2001 Lawrence J. Epstein An interview conducted by J. Brook earlier this month. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mr. Epstein is a Professor of English at Suffolk Community College. He is widely considered an expert on American Jewish life and has written several Jewish- related books, such as A Treasury of Jewish Anecdotes and A Treasure of Jewish Inspirational Stories. |
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Will you please summarize for us what the book is about? I wanted to tell the story of Jewish comedians in America starting at the turn of the 20th century with such people as George Burns and Jack Benny. Then I traced the history of the comedians through vaudeville, radio, movies, and tv, going on up through Seinfeld and Adam Sandler. Of course, there is a major section on Andy Kaufman, who had a tremendous influence on other comedians. I was interested, for example, in how one generation of comedians influenced another. I got to go to a Friars Roast and go backstage at a comedy club. I also interviewed more than 70 people such as Sid Caesar, Buddy Hackett, David Brenner, and many, many others. I wanted to include the struggles Jewish comedians had, and the weight of their past, so I titled it THE HAUNTED SMILE: THE STORY OF JEWISH COMEDIANS IN AMERICA. Readers can learn more about the book, and read an extensive excerpt, by clicking here. What prompted you to write this book? This will sound odd, but it is exactly what happened. A literary agent called me and asked if I had an idea for a book. I told him I didn't, but two minutes after hanging up the phone the whole idea for the book came to me in a flash. A minute later, without trying to think of one, the title came. It was very strange, but I knew I had to write it then. How does the book touch on Andy Kaufman? Where did your research take you with him? Andy was, to put it mildly, one of a kind. He was an original genius. I tried to get that across, but I also wanted to show he was part of the Jewish comedic tradition. You mentioned in the book that Jewish comedians “drew on their heritage in ways they themselves didn't understand.” How do you see this with Andy Kaufman? Yes, I think it's true also of Andy. He absorbed the comedians--both Jewish and Gentile--who came before him, but his sensibilities were very Jewish in the sense of struggling with the nature of an identity. Jews knew who they were back in the small towns and cities of Eastern Europe because they practiced their religion and were separate from everyone else. Here in America everyone mixed together. That change created a problem for Jews in understanding who they were. This search for a clear identity was clearly a major element of Andy's work. On the surface, it did not appear that Andy was a practicing Jew as an adult. In fact, what I've learned is that for most of his adult life he was immersed in what I would categorize as the pseudo-religious pursuit of Transcendental Meditation or TM. Do you see this as having contributed to or hindered the "Jewish" influences in Andy's work? The subject of Andy Kaufman’s TM experience has been hotly debated recently in one of our CAKS forums by the way. I think it's important to draw a distinction between Jewish religious practices and a Jewish identity. Andy--and most other Jewish comedians--were not traditionally Jewish in a religious sense. Their attachment to other spiritual efforts was, in fact, a sign of their identity confusion and search, and their efforts for some inner peace from the pain of having to undertake such a search. Andy's TM experiences probably calmed him down to perform but I don't think they had a direct influence on his comedy. I enjoyed reading your discussion of the importance of Yiddish to Jewish comedians. One thing In particularly you mentioned was that just the sound of Yiddish words is funny to people. It reminded me of Andy's character "Foreign Man". Much like, I suppose, Yiddish, the language of "Foreign Man" is not always easy to understand, but the language is very funny. This seeing the connection between Yiddish and Foreign Man is actually crucial, I think, to understanding the meaning of Andy Kaufman. Remember the key problem of identity for Jews was between their being truly Jewish and truly American. Were they foreign immigrants or suave, cool American insiders? Foreign Man was that immigrant, unable to speak the language, an innocent in a tough world. Given the identity struggle, it was inevitable that Andy would have to create another exaggerated character to represent the other side, the insider. That, of course, is Tony Clifton. To see the genesis of these characters, I strongly suggest fans of Andy see THE NUTTY PROFESSOR, the Jerry Lewis film, in which a nerd uses science to transform himself into a suave guy. But Lewis saw, at the end, that such a switch wasn't good, and the lesson of the film is that the nerd (traditional Jews) should be happy with their identity. Andy's view was much, much more radical. He thought that the pain of having to wear masks in America--the happy immigrant, the guy wrestling to enter the society, the obnoxious insider--eventually destroyed the true self underneath. Was there anything that surprised you about Andy Kaufman in your research? I had followed his career, so there weren't research surprises. I guess my only real regret was that he wasn't still around performing. Andy Kaufman was known for many things. One important element was his apparent love of hoaxing using a myriad of unique characters. And his tenacity not to break character or bring the viewer in on his many deceptions was legendary. That said, do you see these two attributes flowing from Andy's heritage? How? In the tenacity not to break character, he was struggling hard to hold onto a slippery identity, which, in the end, he couldn't do. That, as I've indicated, I think flows directly from his heritage. The hoaxes are indications of the tricks that he thought Jews had to do to survive in America because they were subject to anti-Semitism. You mentioned as well that Jewish theology contributed to the makeup of Jewish comedians. And also mention that “truth is of the highest value in the Jewish tradition.” This is highly interesting, because it seemed that Andy Kaufman was constantly interested in masking or playing with the truth through, again, the issuance of his many hoaxes. Can you comment on that? As I suggested, I think Andy ultimately thought that having to put on so many identities didn't so much hide the truth as destroy it. There was no reality underneath anymore; it was wiped out by the necessity of having to wear masks. In your research, did you come across other Jewish comedians with humor/performance work similar to Andy Kaufman’s? What parallels did you see? I think Andy's place in comedy history is secured by the very fact that no one was so daring. No one had challenged what an audience thought was humorous except for Lenny Bruce. And no one at all had gone as far as he had in denying a fundamental identity. Your book essentially focuses on only the first 2-3 generations of Jewish comedians in the U.S. Do you foresee the traits you’ve discovered in many Jewish comedians (quick wit, bold approach, ability to fit in, etc.) becoming “diluted” in time as generations of Jews become further assimilated into U.S. culture? Actually, I tried to cover all the generations. It's a good question. Right now, I'd say the traits are holding up. Part of the success of Jewish comedians, though, depended not only on their own humor but on the particular emotional needs of American audiences. (For example, during the Great Depression, audiences could turn to the humorists who had stared poverty in the face for a thousand years and had survived, in part through their humor.) The success of THE PRODUCERS on Broadway is one indication that there is still, for the time being at least, a strong taste for this material. In one part of your book you reference a belief that for at least some Jewish comedians, the humor “emerged from depression and intense alienation from the culture” of the U.S. and that these comedians were “very unhappy people.” I can see this intensely in a comedian like Brother Theodore, but do you believe this was the case with Andy Kaufman? I would say with Andy that it was less depression than confusion. Brother Theodore, of course, had good reasons to be depressed. Andy was alienated from a traditional identity and his search--again, a very Jewish one--consumed his mind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Haunted Smilewill be available in stores October, 2001. Purchase is also available throughout Amazon.comor Barnes and Noble. For more information about Mr. Epstein and The Haunted Smile, click here. |
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